tv Nancy Grace HLN November 25, 2009 1:00am-2:00am EST
breaking news tonight. live to florida and the ponte vedra coast. a wealthy health care exec comes home to find his young, beautiful wife and mother of his two little girls gone. left behind, a handwritten note demanding $50,000 in exchange for his wife, quinn gray. she allegedly suffers terrible abuse and a sex attack at the hands of her captor. but here's the twist. the 25-year-old mechanic charged with trying to extort thousands from gray's husband isn't her captor but her alleged lover and they faked the whole thing. tonight, secret audio between gray and her alleged boyfriend. plus, police interrogations emerge, and we have those tapes. and tonight, gray gets moved to
good evening. i'm pat lalama sitting in for nancy grace. i want to thank you for being with us tonight. live to florida. a high-powered money man comes home to find his wife vanished. left behind, a handwritten ransom note demanding 50 grand for the return of his wife. and the kicker, the kidnapper and the victim are allegedly
>> quinn gray's remarkable story in just a minute. but first, breaking news, live to south carolina. a 1-month-old baby boy kidnapped from his mother's car. police say the mother leaves the baby strapped in his car seat inside her idling car, runs into the local post office, and when she returns just five minutes later, the baby is gone. david mcdougall from the "charleston post and courier," what's the latest? >> the latest, well, you have the latest. pretty much that's in essence, the child hasn't been found yet. there's an amber alert being broadcast throughout the state. and the fbi has stepped in and offered a $20,000 reward. and police are asking for any help, anybody -- they set up a phone bank to take tips. they've set out a timeline of where the mother was before she got to the post office.
and they're asking anybody who saw her or saw anybody suspicious around her to give them a call. >> oh, unbelievable. bless this little child. matt zarell, nancy grace producer, what is that timeline? >> well, mom left at about 1:59, mom left to go and run a couple errands. she went to a number of stores including walmart and a ross store. now, cops are looking at video surveillance there to see if maybe she was followed by this alleged kidnapper that took her baby pos office being the only place, matt, where she did not bring the baby inside? >> yeah, that's correct. and cops say she was only inside for five minutes or less. she left the car running. the kid was strapped into the child seat in the back seat. she comes out less than five minutes later, and the kid's gone. >> spencer pryor, pio north charleston police department, thanks for being with us. do we have any reason to believe there's any kind of collusion? >> well, at this point in time we do not have any information leading us to that. but our biggest plea is to someone out there that has that child, and that child needs to be returned to its mother.
>> can you describe the two different vehicles for us, the one the mother was driving, the one the suspect was driving? or at least the person you believe to be the suspect. >> sure. the mother's vehicle was a 1997 lincoln four-door vehicle sedan. it was white in color. the suspect vehicle, we're getting information that it was either a dark gray or charcoal four-door compact vehicle. we do know that it supposedly had a rear spoiler on it. that's the suspect vehicle. >> david mcdougall, the mother says she went in, thought she was going to be there a couple minutes -- tell us the story of what happened inside the post office. >> well, i wasn't there. but what i've heard is that she, you know, just -- i saw the car last night right adjacent to -- right up snack dab against the front door of the post office. so she apparently parked the car and just, you know, jogged inside to make -- run a quick
errand. i think she was going to buy stamps or something. and when she came out, the baby was gone. >> marc klaas, president and founder of the klaaskids foundation. we don't want to indict the mom. you know, and she's probably a young mother. but this is a precarious situation. what needs to happen right now? >> well, i think the police are on to something. they have to continue to look for this suspect. seems to be the kind of a suspect that can easily be found. but i'd like to say, pat, we've done a very good job in the 21st century of informing people and educating people and taking the bad guy and putting him behind bars and letting the neighbors know who is a threat in their neighborhood. but there has to be a point where parental responsibility kicks in. and this mother just did one of the dumbest things that a person can do in the 21st century, which is to leave an unattended child in a running vehicle. it just makes no sense on any
level. and i hope that she is understanding the consequences of her stupidity right now. >> bill golodner, former new york police detective and president of kindershield agency. time is of the essence. how can the public help in this matter? >> there is an amber alert out there. people have been made aware of the description of the possible perpetrator who may have little angel perez. we really hope for the safe return of this child. always that's first and foremost in our mind, pat. what i would like to say is we have to really look at this. i'm sure the police are looking at it from a variety of different angles. if the woman went into the -- the mom, she went into the post office, and it's alleged she'd gone to a machine to buy stamps, that there was a problem with the machine and then she had to purchase those stamps from one of the postal employees, if you've ever stood behind someone at one of those stamp machines, it can take a while. it could have been more than five minutes. it's just horrific to actually
leave a child in a car unattended like that for such a long period of time. >> dr. leigh vinocur, university of maryland school of medicine, this is a 1-month-old baby. weeks old. we're worried about the health, are we not? >> yes. and the idea that it is ridiculous. today you see mothers carrying their babies around in carriers. these car seats are carriers so you can take them out of the car. it is ridiculous to leave a 1-month-old in the car. and obviously, the child needs to be fed and cared for. i mean, i think i would worry more that somebody would steal the car and by accident the baby would be in the back. it seems very hard to believe that a mom would leave a baby in a car, especially today, when it's easy to just unclip the car seat, carry it in with you. >> leslie austin, psychotherapist, we've talked over and over again about the reasons women may do such a thing. give it to us briefly. >> well, i do have some sympathy for the mom.
she made a tragic, stupid mistake. everybody always thinks it will never happen to me, i'm just going to run in, it will be fine. don't ever do it. you never know when somebody's going to -- >> but i'm asking, leslie, about the women who steal the baby. >> women who steal the baby. obviously, somebody that's going to steal the baby is unstable to begin with. she may have just thought she wanted a child and could just snatch it. she may have lost a child. she may be very mentally unstable. we don't know what her condition is. but what we do know is we need to get that child back because someone who would steal a child is not going to take care of that baby properly. and it's very crucial when a baby is that young to be bonding with the mom and be really safe and well cared for. >> we're looking at surveillance footage of the mom with the child shopping at a store earlier. ray giudice, defense attorney, it's a tough one. but you know, what are you going to say about a woman who does -- how are you going to defend a woman who does this? >> well, pat, so often the women that have stolen other people's children from hospitals and other situations have significant mental illness, and they are looking to bring that
child into their family and into their life. i don't know anything about a perpetrator here, but that person is looking at a kidnapping charge. and if they can hear me, what they need to do is take that child to a fire station, a police station, somewhere safe, and then go see a good lawyer and don't let this thing get any worse than it already is. >> john burris, defense attorney, very quickly, could the mom be in any kind of trouble? for leaving the baby? >> obviously there's a question of child endangerment leaving a child that way. whether anyone would want to prosecute her, first determine whether the child is found or not and then some investigations of what happened. you always have the question of whether the kid is in an unsafe home environment. so you could have an investigation take place as a consequence of that. >> i hope they find the person who did it. it's a sad world we live in, now, i think, that it's hard to trust people. it would only take a second for a child to be missing.
i'm pat lalama in for nancy grace. and budding hollywood screenwriters, here's your story. take notes. we're going to go right to ellie jostad, nancy grace producer. wow. okay. before we get to this wild story with these twists and turns -- see, i'm so choked up i can't even talk. she now first -- let's explain. she got moved to a mental facility, another one. explain why. >> right. well, police are saying that what looks like a kidnapping for ransom is actually a plot between this wealthy florida
wife and mother and her alleged lover. now, the wife's lawyers are claiming that she was actually suffering from an undiagnosed bipolar disorder, that's why she began to seemingly participate in this whole thing. so she was -- her bond was reduced. she was moved to a mental health facility. now, she's completed a 90-day program there. or rather a shorter program there. now they want to move her into a more extensive 90-day program. that transfer has just happened. we no longer, however, know exactly where she is and where she's getting treatment. >> okay. now, part of the evidence -- i'm sorry. it's not funny. but it is like a jackie collins novel. part of the evidence is a secret recording made by the alleged kidnapper. this is pretty clever. let's go to some of the sound. then we'll talk about it. >> okay.
>> okay. bill golodner, former nypd detective. doesn't sound like a woman who's under too much duress to me. >> let me tell you, i've interviewed hundreds if not thousands of people, and i've heard it all. all the lies, all the recriminations, everything. this really sounds in some of those tapes when she's describing the sexual acts, it sounds like she's detailing a bad date to a friend of hers. >> ellie, the issue is there's
two different stories, right? ellie jostad. there's his story and there's her story and they're going to be fighting each other like mad dogs. she says she didn't know him before. you go ahead and explain it all. >> quinn gray says she has no previous relationship with this man, that he kidnapped her, he repeatedly sexually assaulted her while she was in captivity. now, what he says is that they actually met at a gas station, saw each other again at the beach a few days later, started talking, she began to invite him over to the house, they started an affair. he says they were having an affair for a month and a half before this incident and that they cooked up this whole plot to get money from her husband together. >> okay. now, i have in my hot little hands here a transcript of the secret tape, and it says something like, according to her -- she's saying "i look a lot better when i'm cleaned up, you know? he says "i know. i've seen it." and she says "you've seen me in the shower." and here's what's important. "i actually like the fact that when i walked into the house the way you were, the first time
when i walked, when you actually let me in the house." ray giudice. come on. they knew each other before. >> pat, representing her is going to be a real difficult situation. and i'll take the easy way out since you went to me first. if i'm representing him, osmanovic, i'm going to roll over while she's in her ritzy health club psych facility, take a plea, and agree to testify against her. that's how i'd handle it. i'll pass the tough defendant on to john burris. >> well, john burris, defense attorney, you got the tough job here. now, are you going to try to use this bipolar business? >> i'm going to use as much of a mental distress argument as i can. bipolar is not going to work in and of itself. it's a question of the totality of all this. but i've got to have some kind of mental defense to suggest that she wasn't thinking clearly, something very bad happened to her along the way. she got hit on the head somewhere along the line. there's a change in her personality. i've got to use something like
i'm pat lalama in for nancy grace. boy, here's another one from her talking to her alleged boyfriend. "when i see my mom, i'll be hysterical. i can work it." okay, now, mark williams, anchor/reporter. according to her, her defense, her husband, they think she was legitimately kidnapped and then suddenly fell into the stockholm syndrome? >> well, they're looking back at the patty hearst deal, back in the 1970s when patty hearst literally had to conform to her kidnappers. the audiotape shows she didn't fall into the stockholm syndrome or any of the other stuff they talk about. she was actually in love with this 25-year-old stud puppy. all she wanted was the $50,000 from her husband, her kids, and she'd leave him alone.
now, remember, they live in a house in st. johns county worth an estimated $4 million. their mortgage payments are $25,000 a month. $50,000 is a drop in the bucket for reid gray. >> but you know what, marc klaas, president and founder of klaaskids foundation? you know, one thing that she did say that made sense to me, hey, if i needed 50 grand, i'd just go to the bank. that little sliver sounds legitimate. >> and that's the only thing that sounds legitimate about her story, pat. that's the problem. everything else looks like they colluded to try to squeeze 50 grand -- >> but for 50 grand? if the guy's got 20 million. 50 grand? i'm going to at least go for 3 mill or 4 mill. >> well, sure. i hadn't heard that he had 20 million. i understand that he is very well off. but that's the only thing that doesn't make -- i mean, that's one of the few pieces of this puzzle that doesn't really fit. everything else makes it look like she's involved with this guy and they worked this thing together. remember, it was her husband.
now, ellie jostad, nancy grace producer, this whole bipolar business which, of course, is going to be part of the defense, whether it works or not, has it ever been proved? is there an official diagnosis that she suffers from this illness? >> well, what her attorneys and her husband have been saying in some television appearances they made earlier this month was she was in the manic phase of what up until this incident was an undiagnosed and untreated disorder. but since she's been in custody and now been receiving mental health treatment, in an unrelated motion they mention that she has since officially been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. >> hmm. leslie austin, psychotherapist. you are kidnapped, suddenly you become involved. could you throw out there that bipolar had something to do with it? >> not likely. bipolar's a really serious disorder. and it's treatable with medication most of the time. but you can't excuse criminal acts, the things we're hearing on this tape about planning and maybe we'll just blow his head off.
and all of the colluding and plotting. clearly she's happy. she's also not behaving in an especially manic way to expect for disordered thinking on these tapes at the police station. it's not an excuse for what she did. >> okay. patient callers. the first one, melody, from ohio. good evening. >> caller: leslie answered one of my questions. the second question being is if this gentleman is still in jail. thank you. >> mark williams, tell us where they are and what's next. >> well, jasmin osmanovic is now in the st. johns county jail. he's being held on $100,000 bond. he's being held on a kidnapping charge. he will not be seeing the light of day anytime soon. as a matter of fact, on thanksgiving day, pat, he will probably be served turkey in jail. here's another interesting fact that the st. johns county sheriff's office thought it was just an extortion plot, is due to the fact that she didn't have
any bruises on her body. nothing like that to look like it was a kidnapping or a hostage situation or anything like that. so he's going to spend his time in jail and probably quinn gray will be spending her time maybe visiting her family. >> okay. bill golodner, former nypd detective, it's actually both extortion charges against both of them, but she's got a higher bail. any clue why? >> she may be more of a flight risk. >> with all the money. >> with all the money. but i'll tell you, if the defense attorneys for osmanovic are good, maybe they can make out a case where he is actually the victim and engaged in the stockholm syndrome, he was taken in by her wiles as an incredibly sexy, outgoing woman. who knows? maybe he can claim that he's now the victim. >> you're looking at photographs of her bruises. and she says she was tied up and brutalized and, you know, sexually attacked, et cetera, et
>> okay. dr. leigh vinocur, university of maryland school of medicine, i'm not asking you to make a legal judgment, but how are we going to be able to tell whether she was a willing participant or she was horridly attacked and raped and abused? >> well, it really depends on the resistance. and when you do an exam, if there was a lot of trauma that was related to it, sometimes you can assume that it was an attack. it's hard with an adult versus, say, a child or something. so that's what makes those date rape cases, was it consensual, was it rape, very difficult. so it would be hard. you'd have to look for trauma. and these marks, i mean, you know, you could get those marks if, you know, you tied yourself up and had sex.
it's going to be hard to tell what was willing and what wasn't. she probably would need a full gyn exam and to see how much trauma was there. >> i want to go to another caller. pam in illinois. good evening, pam. >> caller: good evening. how are you? i was just wondering, was she a party girl? and did the husband miss any money? and how can the woman just walk out on her kids for $50,000? >> that's a really good question. but ellie jostad, there were lots of problems in the marriage even though the husband's defending her, correct? >> reid gray is standing by his wife. in some of the court documents there are allegation that's there were affairs by both parties in their marriage. and actually this past summer it all kind of came to a head. quinn gray apparently agreed to go to rehab. but her husband, reid, says after she got her treatment she came back and things were idyllic at that point up until this alleged kidnapping. >> ray giudice, are you going to try to do anything with -- if you were representing one of
these people, these tapes. are you going to try to challenge these tapes in any way? let's start with the tapes that he secretly recorded. >> well, here's his problem. as the detective pointed out, he might try to defend himself by saying no, she entrapped me. but here's the problem. he's recording his own conversations. he's clearly a willing participant and a mover in this plot. so i think he's got a lot of problems. i think the tapes are coming into evidence. of course, his defense counsel, we'd fight to keep them out. >> john burris, the new thing now is that her lawyers are saying that she knows the judge, they're even a little bit friendly, same birthday parties, same house. is that a reason to throw the judge out? >> well, i'd be troubled by that if i was the prosecution. i think that the judge, himself, would have to acknowledge that there was this pre-existing personal relationship. i think that that -- he should recuse himself voluntarily given that. and frankly, he should not be involved in the case.
i don't think there's a question of bias per se. he can always say that he didn't. but i think that kind of personal relationship, interaction, if it has the appearance of a conflict or a bias then he should recuse himself from the case. >> and mark williams, is she also using as part of this thing that her husband wanted her dead and she lived in fear? >> you know, we haven't heard anything about that. at least i haven't heard that. i think she just wanted to get away from the husband. she wanted her $50,000, literally her two kids, and she would get out of his life. one thing about the judge is that judge wendy berger, they've known each other for a while and they've gone to parties, they've gone to school functions together. and you know, it's up to the judge to decide whether she wants to recuse herself, but she's not going to.
>> polygraph examinations are not generally admissible in court -- >> but why would she agree? i guess that's the question for the defense, right? >> why? that's a very good question. and one of the reasons is she may be so full of herself that she thinks she can beat the system. she thinks maybe she can get there. who knows if she took some type of a substance prior to taking that polygraph exam that she thought she could calm herself down with? >> thought she was invincible. yeah. absolutely. let me go to another caller. jason in pennsylvania. hi, jason. >> hi. how are you? >> i'm well. your question. >> caller: okay. my question is saying this is completely legitimate, a legitimate kidnapping, what would the purpose be of recording that tape if not for an alibi? >> okay. ellie jostad, you know the answer to that, correct? >> right. well, jasmin osmanovic, he's either the alleged lover or the alleged kidnapper, depending on which side you believe. he tells police that at some point he got the feeling that
she was going to try to blame this whole thing on him. he says that he went into this afraid for her, he thought she was in a bad marriage, trapped, couldn't get out of it, that her husband may actually want to replace her with a younger woman. so he says he went in this to try to help her somehow. but at some point he got scared that she was going to blame him, so he decided to secretly record it so that later he would have proof that she was actually part of this collusion about this kidnapping. >> whoa. so many twists and turns. and ray giudice, what about that polygraph test? it just surprises me that she'd agree. but that is a good point, i think, if someone might be sociopathic they're going to feel invincible. a lot of defendants want to do it, right? >> in fact, a good polygrapher is not going to take a test on someone who is both bipolar, medicated, and needs to be placed in a psychiatric ward because you're not going to get a good sample and a good test. >> all right. diana in missouri, a question from you. >> caller: yeah. i have more of a comment. my understanding is she had access to the bank accounts, the
$50,000. so why would she put her children through this? you know, if she's so concerned about her children, then why would she leave them for all this time and send police on a wild goose chase? >> that's a very good question. leslie austin, psychotherapist, there's all kinds of women who dump their kids for a lot of really nefarious reasons, correct? >> yeah, there sure are. i think ray giudice is on to something here. i think as time goes on we're going to see leaning more toward the diagnosis of extreme sociopath or psychopath, who's very narcissistic and is only out for her own gratification. so there's not a logic here.
there's certainly no compassion for her family. she's only out for what she wants. and her stories don't make sense. so it's very, very problematic. there's a lot of disordered thinking here. >> mark williams, why is her husband defending her? >> you know, that's tough to say. i thought about that for a long time, pat, and all i could think of is for the good of the children if nothing else. because all of a sudden, you know, he is defending her, saying he brought up -- he's the guy who brought up this bipolar disease defense. and he's sticking by her like anything sticks to glue. so it's going to be interesting to see what happens when this case is all said and done. >> dr. leigh vinocur, university of maryland school of medicine, if she's trying to use this thing that he wants me dead, what -- anything physical we might look for from her life in the house with him that might prove she was in danger or being harmed in some way? >> well, i mean, domestic violence can be pretty insidious, and it can happen to any type of woman, any socioeconomic glass, but usually there's something in the past, family members have told she's been isolated or she's had some issues in the past. more than just these reports of affairs. so usually, there's somebody, a
doctor or somebody who these reports came out to as opposed to just coming out now. but it should be something that should be looked into. but it still doesn't excuse behavior for doing something illegal. >> ellie jostad, just to keep the record clear, we have no indication her husband's harmed her physically in any way, correct? >> right. we know of no prior domestic abuse. >> okay. all right. we're going to switch gears a little bit for you now. a very wonderful, wonderful package that we call "cnn heroes." >> let us marvel at peter kithene. >> it was just a fantastic thing at the right time. i remember two weeks after that my country went into flames. >> reporter: in late 2007 kenya erupted in ethnic violence. yet in the face of this tragedy peter kithene's clinic, mama
maria kenya, thrived. >> going through that as a hero, i was just like, wow, i can show some kind of leadership. while 40% of clinics are closing across the country. >> today, there are two mama maria clinics. peter credits the growth to the overwhelming support he's received since becoming a cnn hero. >> the life has been altered. people listen to me when i talk. >> the clinics treat more than 14,000 people each year. for this native son, it's just the beginning of a pledge he made when he was orphaned at the age of 12. a pledge and a dream to make a difference. >> the goal is to reach as many community as possible. there's still a lot of work to do.
she is acting like she was suffering. the story does not hold water. >> she talks about this terrific weekend. witnesses say she was able to come and go, and she did. >> this sounds like a crummy table reading of a new pornographic film that is going to be made. this is now put out in the public eye. what are her children -- this is all news media information. this will be detrimental to her children. >> she doesn't seem to be feeling all that guilty. well, all right, any time? nope. very quickly. she said she was mad at the
media for not pushing on the kidnapping issue. marc klaas? very little time. >> very little time. we do not have kidnapping for ransom in the united states. when somebody reports a kidnapping, it takes resources away from other situations. it creates a cry wolf scenario if this is not real. tonight, let's stop to remember kyle vandegiesen. he was killed in afghanistan one week before he was to come home. he leaves behind parents ruth and calvin, two brothers, a sister, wife megan, daughter avery and baby son, colin. an american hero. our biggest thank you to you.
see you tomorrow night, 8:00 p.m. sharp, eastern. nancy, thanks for the opportunity. until then, have a great night. #. here is what is coming up at the top of the hour, adam outrage. new developments over his sexually charged shocker at the american music awards. abc strikes back today and takes drastic action against adam. kate speaks out about the other woman, jon's 22-year-old girlfriend. starts at the top of the hour here on hln.